8th House as a Portal to Healing

8th House as a Portal to Healing

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00] Fiona Marques: Hello everyone. Welcome to The Vedic Astrology Podcast. My name is Fiona Marques and I am hosting the episode today. One of the things that I love exploring in Astrology is the 8th House. It is a mysterious House. It is a transformational House. It has a little touch of magic in it. But because of that mystery, it's something that I'm always fascinated to understand more about. And for that reason, I have invited my colleague Marcel Xampeny to join me today. And Marcel is an extremely intuitive astrologer, and I would like to invite him to say "Hello" to everyone.

[00:00:42] Marcel Xampeny: Hi everyone. I started to study Vedic Astrology when I was in India. I was studying in a temple there. And then when I came back in the middle of COVID 19 I start with Ryan's (Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship Program) 

[00:00:56] Fiona Marques: And Marcel is joining us from Spain. I am here in Portugal. So it's an Iberian Podcast today! And please remember that there is a transcript available for the podcast. And if you are watching on YouTube, we have the subtitles available too. So let's jump into one of my favorite topics.

[00:01:16] The complex relationship between the 1st, 2nd and 8th Houses

[00:01:16] Fiona Marques: The reason that I wanted us to get together for a podcast episode today was I noticed some really interesting observations that you were making about the self-development journey, transformation journey, healing / psychology journeys. An observation that you made that we all begin life in the 1st House. And people who listen to the podcast regularly will know that I love the Hero's Journey that is embedded in the Astrology Houses. So we all, wherever that moment of birth took place, we all begin our journey in the 1st House and we are supported in stepping into our journey, our Hero's Journey by the 2nd House. The 2nd House that provides us with resources and the support that we need. If we think of ourselves being in that baby body, in the infant body, we are dependent on the resources in the 2nd House. That is our immediate family, our parents, and those siblings that are around us, perhaps some extended family that live in the home. Those are the people that ensure that we receive nourishment and care and nurturing. That allows us to be blessed with the rest of our journey. But as an infant, we are really dependent on the 2nd House and other people for our resources. 

And the observation that you were making was that to really actualize from the 2nd House, we need to experience the 8th House. That diametrically opposed, on the other side of the zodiac, the 8th House where we learn how to fend for ourselves. We face all of our inner demons. And this relationship between the 2nd House and the 8th House can help us when we are working with our clients to see where the pathway to mental healing might be for that client.

And tell us about that, the relationship between the 2nd House and the 8th House. And if you want to, you could also talk about Taurus and Scorpio. What is it that is so essential in the 2nd House-8th House, in the Taurus-Scorpio, for our nourishment and our mental health? What is that continuum really about? 

[00:04:06] Marcel Xampeny: The thing is that, in the 2nd House is usually related to how eat, even how we take shower and the things that we learn when we are in our childhood. And it's really important because these are the habits that we learn.

And then we start to get being neurotic people as I say. And then if we want to change this pattern, this way of making things in the future, I think that we have to go to Scorpio, which is the 8th House before making step towards the 9th House. Which is a Trikrona. And the strongest of the Dharma Houses.

Because if we go into Scorpio / the 8th House, it's like we have to go deeper the holes and study which are the traumas or which are the wounds that we have, and then we can start to transform the pain into into beauty. And then we can change the way of making things because we have all the themes, all the fears that we have inside.

This is a process if we want to high (raise) our awareness and make things more conscious.

[00:05:20] Fiona Marques: It reminds me of a quote that I think is Carl Jung, which is "The cave that we are afraid to enter, hides the treasure that we are seeking". And none of us want to go into those dark places of Scorpio or of the caves because they're full of all of the scary monsters, those psychological monsters that we have.

But it really is the freedom, as you are saying, if we want to come to that Dharmic 9th House, the only way to get there is through the 8th House. 

[00:05:59] Taurus and the 2nd House as a source of neurosis?

[00:05:59] Fiona Marques: So I'm also really interested in what you are saying about the 2nd House, that in some ways that's where our neurosis are developed because we, in that 2nd House of needing to be nourished by others when we are in that infant body, we're the sponge for picking up all of the programming that's going on around us. We don't have a filter to evaluate any of those experiences. Everything that happens is just absorbed into the psyche. So do you think that the 2nd House is somewhere in the chart where we can look for those patterns that, that the client might have?

[00:06:44] Marcel Xampeny: I'm not sure because Mercury is the one who is processing the thoughts from outside to inside, discriminating and these things. If I have to say which is the Sign in which we are getting stuck with the patterns: the way of eating; the way of taking shower; the way of saying things; reacting in a way. I think that maybe it's from more in Taurus because it's Earth. Earth is related to body. Taurus Sign if we want to see which are our usual or natural habits or way of making things.

[00:07:21] Fiona Marques: So the 2nd House could be somewhere where we can see what has entered into a person's psyche during that open and absorbing stage of childhood. And so I guess if we were to see some Malefics or some difficult conjunctions in that 2nd House that might tell us something. The Sign of the 2nd House might tell us something. The Lord of the 2nd House might tell us something. 

But also what you're saying is really important too, isn't it? The state of Mercury, as you said, Mercury helps us perceive when we have incorrect perceptions, it certainly makes for a lot of suffering. So Mercury is important.

But I agree with you that the 2nd House, and in that way Taurus, the 2nd Sign of the Zodiac, can share something about our programming, our unconscious programming that we've absorbed.

[00:08:19] Marcel Xampeny: And the Moon is exalted here. We are receiving, we are integrating, we are like I sponge. It means that it has an enrichment from mother and from a good enrichment, you know how to get resources, how to interact with others. Because this is a Sign of Venus so it gives a good quality to speak, to hear to have memory. So you can get a lot of good qualities if you have the Moon here.

We have to see Rasi Aspects and Aspects, or if there is a conjunction. But with the Moon here, I think that there is huge potential, initial potential. Because if you know how to hear someone, if you know how to speak to other people, how to relate, you are opening strong frequency of opportunities.

[00:09:08] The Moon in Scorpio

[00:09:08] Fiona Marques: And of course that means that the Moon is debilitated in Scorpio. What is it about Scorpio that the Moon really struggles with?

[00:09:18] Marcel Xampeny: The Moon in Scorpio, you have a superpower of being in touch with traumatic experiences. The Moon is the first thing when you are baby. So you are a baby. That is the past. It is your memories, dreams. And all these are coming because you are a baby and you start receiving and seeing, and you are in environment where you get conditioned.

 Scorpio Sign is really one extent to another one. You experience a lot of turbulence. It's experiences that one baby cannot support. The body is not strong to support what is happening. There is violence or there is aggression or whatever it is, the body cannot support that.

In that case, there is, this is traumatic for the Native who has the Moon in Scorpio. And that's why these people have experienced a lot of traumatic things. But then these people grow up thinking that they are the most powerful people. They are attached to this sensation. It's "I'm going to do this alone". "I am like a superhero". "I will do everything." Because they have experience what is the power in its home. 

[00:10:37] Taurus-Scorpio / 2-8 Axis

[00:10:37] Fiona Marques: The Taurus-Scorpio axis is really fascinating because in some ideal world if an infant can have that Taurus experience with a beautiful Moon there, I think we are all able to conceptualize what this ideal 2nd House is like. Where there's just a lot of love, a lot of softness, a lot of support, and all of our needs are met. This is your one's ideal 2nd House.

But in a way, the 8th House, Scorpio, (we are, we're interchanging those, depending on the chart, depending on what's happening) the gift of Scorpio, is the confidence to know that one can get through anything. That one was dependent in the 2nd House. That's the role of being in the 2nd House, is to receive all of that support. And the gift of the 8th House is finding one's independence and psychological independence, mental health independence, that "I can weather these storms and these traumas", (because everybody's chart has got traumas in it). The 8th House is a place where we can find that self resilience and ingenuity, (from Mars owning Scorpio), we can find that ingenuity to endure, thrive, become strong, but it, there is a kind of independence. One has to go into the cave alone and come out of the cave alone, transformed. It's a bit of a magic place the 8th House and Scorpio.

[00:12:18] Marcel Xampeny: It just never knows.

[00:12:20] Fiona Marques: Yeah, it is. It's hidden like that, isn't it? It's like you can see the 7th and you can see the 9th. But what's inside somebody's 8th is a really unique experience. And it's very transformative. That's what the number 8 is all about. Change and transformation. But obviously it offers a lot of possibility.

I remember when we very first began the Apprenticeship (The Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship) and we learned the Sutras from the various ancient texts. There's a phrase that goes, I believe, with Scorpio that is, "That which is denied by the breast". And it is quite shocking to imagine the baby having the breast removed, and that everything that you've depended on for support and nourishment, it's the 8th House where we find out how can I survive without those things.

But of course what's really interesting is that the 8th House is also other people's money. It's where we inherit things. It's where we get legacies and insurance payouts. Whereas the 2nd House is where we work for our own income. So they've really got a very complex relationship with the resources.

The 2nd and the 8th have a patchwork or a multi-dimensional relationship with resources that's all about independence and receptivity and your own effort and surrender, and then a little bit of magic as well.

[00:14:00] Why we Project onto our Romantic Partners

[00:14:00] Marcel Xampeny: And what's funny now is the 2nd House from the 7th, it's the 8th.

[00:14:06] Fiona Marques: The 8th House is the 2nd House from the 7th. And the 7th is the partner and other people. So the 8th House, therefore is the income and the resources from other people.

[00:14:19] Marcel Xampeny: I wanted to say you get a girlfriend or boyfriend. Then the 8th House represents conjugal bond. 

[00:14:26] Fiona Marques: Highlighting that vulnerability of the 8th House. That in order to have a conjugal bond that will turn into a marriage, (which is the 9th House, which provides the tradition and all of the conventions that keep our society together), in order to do that, we have to take this relationship of the 7th House and go through the mystery of the 8th House and be very vulnerable.

Just like the 2nd House is very vulnerable. This is why they're opposites and they're kind of exactly the same in a different way. Because we risk everything in revealing ourself to another person. That's when that person could kill us or damage us because we are completely defenseless and vulnerable.

Just like we were in the 2nd House as an infant needing to receive nourishment. We can't get to anywhere else on the Hero's Journey unless we get some nourishment from the 2nd House. 

[00:15:23] Marcel Xampeny: When you are with someone and you are getting a new relationship, and then you start to intimate more, what happens is that you are traveling again into your early childhood.

Because when you have a partner, usually what you do is project your mom or your father. And that's in a way coming back to your early childhood because when you are, when you get angry with your partner, if you ask, "Okay is she doing this because she wants to hurt me? Or is she doing this to me because I cannot see totally my girlfriend and I am seeing my mother?" The way we react it's because we are projecting our mom or our father. And that's where 8th House comes into play here because it's the 2nd from the 7th. So it's "How I am going to be resourceful?"

[00:16:21] Fiona Marques: This is what's so insightful is that the 8th House is like a chance to have a redo of the 2nd House.

It's, we find a partner and we're willing to go into a deeper space with them knowing that the only way through, for that relationship to survive, is for us to project all of our pain and wake up and realize "It's not my girlfriend, it's not my boyfriend that's doing that. This belongs to me!" And then when we are awake and we can see it, we can do something about it, hopefully. 

Of course, there are, unfortunately, many experiences we have where we go from 7 through 8 and that experience of projecting onto the other person our unmet needs from the parents, means that the relationship doesn't survive. And we can't get number 9 because we are just too in the delusion that this partner is the person causing the pain when actually they are giving us an opportunity to have a redo of our 2nd House.

[00:17:36] Marcel Xampeny: That's why it's tricky because if you get attached to this sensation, then the 8th House is also transformation, sudden breaks, attachment and compulsion, addiction and all this drama and trauma. Both of them. 

[00:17:51] Nodes 2022-2023

[00:17:51] Fiona Marques: And what's interesting this year and last year we've had the Nodes in Taurus and Scorpio. We've had our eclipses on these Signs of Taurus and Scorpio. And maybe that's why there's a growing cultural conversation about mental health, isn't there? I don't wanna say that it started with Rahu and Ketu entering Tauru s and Scorpio, because obviously the conversation has been building for much longer than that, but I think culturally there's a lot more celebrities or famous people coming out to, to share their vulnerabilities with their mental health. So maybe Ketu being in Scorpio has been helping all of us grow up a little bit and accept our vulnerabilities and be compassionate to ourselves. 

[00:18:43] Gemini Ascendant example

[00:18:43] Fiona Marques: Now, before I let you go today, Marcel, let's bring this back to charts, for example. So let's imagine in our mind this imaginary Gemini Ascendant that was the subject of the essay.

So if listeners as well, if you would like to close your eyes and visualize, if you can a Gemini Ascendant. What is the 2nd House for a Gemini Ascendant? And what is the 8th House for a Gemini Ascendant? When someone has a Gemini Rising, we know that the 1st House and the 4th House are ruled by Mercury. And we can sometimes say that, perhaps Gemini Ascendant is a little bit of a neurotic Ascendant because Gemini is, as you were saying earlier in the podcast, a Planet that is involved in perception, in bringing the outside to the inside as you so beautifully put it. And it's very fast moving, very quick wit, seeing both sides of everything. And when we have that Planet ruling, the 1st House of the personality and the 4th House of our inner peace and our heart and our sense of inner contentment, perhaps that creates someone that thinks a lot and worries a lot. And perhaps that's one of those stereotypes that we sometimes think about Gemini Ascendant.

However, if we keep looking at the Houses, the 2nd House for Gemini Ascendant is Cancer, which is ruled by the Moon. And this seems to me to be important in the conversation that we are having, that the 2nd House already has that connection with the Moon and the mother. And is a Water Sign.

 Does that tell us that for a Gemini Ascendant, the 8th House is where they need to go to for their mental health? Which would be Capricorn, an Earth Sign ruled by Saturn.

[00:20:47] Marcel Xampeny: All Gemini Ascendant they are a lot of thinkers. The mind all the time is thinking a lot. And with this Ascendant you have all the time, a lot of options to do. And it's very good to meditate and to try to focus your mind in one goal.

And because if not you can lost a lot of energy, and then you are not directed towards something. You are like one year or six months or two years developing something new. And you want to improve. Maybe you have another great idea and you get bored and just leave it there.

And this is for me the strongest point for a Gemini send try to maintain one direction in life. Because if not, you are not going to to build anything in a, in in a solid way. And that's why here Capricorn gets activated. Because if you start to work with your Saturn, if you start to work with Capricorn. So what it means that you have to work with all the energy of Saturn. It means that you have to be disciplined, you have to endure your day-to-day routine. And and then if you start to create this sense of hard work, but in a consistent manner, then you can pass to the 9th House of Aquarius, which is the Dharma. Which is after all your experience, after all you have to go through, then you can teach a lot. And you can join 1000 of minds and you can share your own experience. But first you have to go to Capricorn, which is solid Earth and the Karma Bhava.

[00:22:42] Fiona Marques: And Saturn just takes its mission and keeps moving forward, doesn't it? So that's what you're saying, that for a Gemini Ascendants gonna benefit from consistency. And Saturn is one of those animals that we load up to carry heavy goods and we just set it off and it just keeps putting one foot in front of another. It doesn't question the mission anymore, it just does the work. So that's what perhaps Capricorn is showing for a Gemini Ascendant. 

[00:23:13] Cancer Ascendant Example

[00:23:13] Fiona Marques: And obviously today we don't have time to go through all 12 as descendants, but a Cancer Ascendant gives Leo in the 2nd House and Aquarius in the 8th House. Is there anything that we can say about Cancer Ascendant their 2nd House and the 8th House that might help us see how these Signs can be useful for working with our clients around their transformational journey.

[00:23:47] Marcel Xampeny: For a Cancer Ascendant, the 2nd House being Leo it's already say about the kind of authority. And the kind of energy in which the Native was living. It's like the power is really it's important, the power and the authority. And to be someone. Like the recognition is also important here because the baby grows in a family where all these energy is vibrating in its home.

[00:24:14] Fiona Marques: And what about if we think about the healing, the mental health journey for this person, what can the Cancer Ascendant learn from the 8th House being in Aquarius? In healing their mental health, is it connecting through to their peers, like in Alcoholics Anonymous or all of those type of things. Where it's through being with others, recognizing that you are one of many, is that a useful healing journey for a Cancer Ascendant?

[00:24:44] Marcel Xampeny: I think that it's a way of trying to develop and to heal the drama and the trauma.

[00:24:51] Fiona Marques: That 2nd House being Leo and the Sun gives the, that "I'm the most important". The Sun is always the most important. It gets to be the center of the Solar System for that very reason. And therefore that healing journey is to realize "I'm one of the many, and I'm connected. I'm not isolated. I'm not alienated".

[00:25:13] Marcel Xampeny: That's why I think that in the 8th House, in Aquarius, this energy is about freedom, new things, like new ideas. The understanding that everyone is different and each one has its own experiences. 

[00:25:26] Virgo Ascendant Example

[00:25:26] Fiona Marques: Let's see if we've got time to have a look and maybe another one or two. So if someone is a Virgo Ascendant, here we are with Mercury again, but this time in an Earth Sign. Mercury ruling, the 1st House in the 10th House for Virgo Ascendants.

And the 2nd House taking place in Libra, which is owned by Venus. Making the 8th House take place in Aries. So what can we say, Virgo Ascendant and their 2nd House and 8th House?

[00:25:57] Marcel Xampeny: The 2nd House for a Virgo Ascendant, we have a place of showing off. This Sign is about how kind, how beautiful, how everything is outside, but not inside. That's why when we have the Moon Libra, it's like "Look at my girl. Look at my child. Look at my baby". How she or he's really beautiful. So the Native here experience an environment of of showing off to people. That is Native has good qualities and characteristics. 

And then the 8th House is Aries. Which means initiate something. Which means create something new. Which means start something. And then, to me it's like, how I am going to the 9th House. First, I have to be brave and to show to the world that I can create something new. It can be a company, it can be whatever, I don't know. But it's like I have to face the, this energy of being brave, this energy of Mars, of creating something. 

[00:27:08] Fiona Marques: Libra being the 2nd House, any traumas that are happening there are actually in the House of a Gentle Planet. So those traumas can be from a Benefic, from too much indulgence or like you said, having a narcissistic parent who is just praising you for the transaction that you're worth. What it is that you can provide to the parent. And so therefore the psychological healing there in, in Aries, is to own the self and to start something that belongs to the self and regain one's independence one's psychological independence and one's value, value oneself independently. Really fascinating. 

[00:27:49] Capricorn Ascendant Example

[00:27:49] Fiona Marques: Alright, so now let's have a look at what it might be for a Capricorn Ascendant. Capricorn Ascendant would make the 2nd House to be Aquarius. So we've got 1st House ruled by Saturn, 2nd House ruled by Saturn. But that would then also make the 8th House Leo, owned by the Sun.

What can we say about this dynamic of Saturn owning the person's 2nd House and Sun and Leo being the place of transforming our traumas?

[00:28:27] Marcel Xampeny: Here we have the 2nd House an energy of an Air energy. And then that speaks that the mother, or in the place where the Native was receiving the energy, it was like really fast and it's like a sensation of "Okay, here is my mom, but now it's where is she? I don't know. Where is she?" Because it's in any moment she will be here, but then she's not here. So in, in this matter, we can create a sensation of all the time repeating the same karma about creating new things, but then waiting because in, in any moment will be disappear.

[00:29:11] Fiona Marques: It's an Air Sign and Saturn is cold and dry and austere and you put that together with an Air Sign and yeah, like you say, it's very fleeting.

[00:29:21] Marcel Xampeny: Yeah. And then we have the, in the 8th, we have Leo. 

[00:29:25] Fiona Marques: We could say is that a little bit like Virgo, because Virgo is an Earth Sign and Capricorn is an Earth Sign, it means that the person's mental health journey here in the 8th House is going to be a Dharmic, auspicious, Fire Sign. Perhaps this person is gonna have to find their own voice and make their own path, even if that means breaking away from what has come before. They're gonna have to become the king of their mental health journey. Which means making your own rules, doesn't it? It's the king. Starting a new kingdom. You get to say what goes and what is the law of this kingdom? So maybe a kind of breaking out and 

[00:30:09] Marcel Xampeny: Yeah. 

[00:30:10] Fiona Marques: creating your own rules.

[00:30:12] Marcel Xampeny: Your own rules because... it's heavy because we have a Capricorn, which is really authoritative strong dry Sign. And then we have the 8th House in Leo, which is also like related to the Sun. The Capricorn Ascendant are usually people who are going through solitude or lonely path, in which they have to make a lot of sacrifices before they can make the step towards Virgo, which is the purification of the entire body. 

[00:30:43] Sagittarius Ascendant Example

[00:30:43] Fiona Marques: I realize that we haven't spoken about a Fire Ascendant. So if we imagine a Sagittarius Ascendant, it's owned by Jupiter, just like we had with Gemini. Jupiter is ruling the 1st House and the 4th House. And then the 2nd House for Sagittarius Ascendant is Capricorn. It's Saturn again, ruling the 2nd House. Meaning that the 8th House is in fact Cancer, where Jupiter is exalted. So what can we say about Sagittarius 2nd House in Capricorn, 8th House in Cancer?

[00:31:23] Marcel Xampeny: This Sign, having the 2nd House of Capricorn we have the energy of Satum here. Dry, not a lot of contact from the, from parents. Then that, that can create a sense of loneliness and not trusting and the difficulty in trusting with others. That's why Cancer, it's the 8th, because Cancer wants you to believe, wants you to trust with the Moon, with mother.

So it's like maybe having a family or maybe experiencing a property (home) or maybe creating something new, which is Cancer. The sense of contentment can be designed. Like a House or maybe creating a family. Maybe these are the experiences in which you have to go through if you want to step into the 9th, which is Leo.

[00:32:15] Fiona Marques: It strikes me that Cancer is a Moksha Sign. What I hear and what you're saying is that there's a bit of surrender/acceptance. That the rigidity of the 2nd House in Capricorn and full of rules and the way things must be done, which, is great for the Sagittarius Ascendant, Fire Ascendant, so it makes Sagittarius Ascendant is amazing Ascendants. They're very directed and strong and intelligent. 

And in fact, the 8th House transformational journey is one of surrender and softening and relaxing, going with the flow and becoming receptive. So what you were saying about perhaps becoming the mother, becoming the family is something very relaxed and flow about that Moksha side.

[00:33:03] Conclusion

[00:33:03] Fiona Marques: I think this is why I wanted to have this conversation because I think there's a lot of value in, in looking at the 8th House journey for each Ascendant. We haven't had time to do that for all Ascendants today, but I hope we've given you a little taste of perhaps a pathway that you can work with your clients to see where there might be those opportunities for psychological transformation. And of course, there's always the opportunity for me to invite Marcel back when we have time to maybe go through all of these Ascendants because personally, Marcel, I've learned a lot from our conversation today.

I really wanna thank you for being available and joining us here on The Vedic Astrology Podcast. I hope that you'll will consider coming back and sharing more with us another time.

[00:33:50] Marcel Xampeny: I love to do that for sure. 

[00:33:53] Fiona Marques: Good. It was a joy to have you here and thanks everyone for listening. We'll, we will catch you next time we get together on The Vedic Astrology Podcast. Bye for now. Bye.

[00:34:02] Marcel Xampeny: Bye, thank you.