18.6 Years and Counting - Lunar Standstills and How to Use a Moon Tracker for Planning

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00] Fiona Marques: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Vedic Astrology Podcast.

My name is Fiona Marques and I'm inviting you today to join me on a journey, a conversation about the Moon, and the Moon as a phenomenon in our life, something we can see in the sky, but perhaps also something that we can use to reflect on our lives, perhaps to set goals. And to help me in this journey, I've invited two of my friends and colleagues. 

I'm delighted to have Steven Jones back with me again. You may remember Steven, my Astronomy buddy from Season 2, Episode 1. We recorded an episode called "Astrology and Astronomy and Their Co Evolution". We answered some questions that Astrologers might have about Astronomy. So Steven, it's delightful to have you back. Thanks for being

here 

[00:00:55] Steven Jones: again. 

Always lovely to see you. 

[00:00:56] Fiona Marques: 

I also have with me Jenn Page from "Self to Systems", who has developed a tool to help us observe and reflect on our experience with the Moon. And Jenn, because you haven't been on the podcast before, can I invite you to share a little bit about your background and your connection with the Moon and with Astrology?

[00:01:20] Jenn Page: Yeah, I'm excited to be here as well. I really appreciate the invitation. So I really got into Astrology over the time of the pandemic and thinking aboutwhat are some things that I'm interested in, but are on the edge of what my normal thought process is.

And the Astrology piece started coming up cause I was really interested in Astronomy before and the history and all those types of connections. And I love anything that is a different system or way of seeing the world and kind of these tools that can help us think more about what might be coming up for us intuitively and allowing us to make a judgment call of, okay, does this work for me? Doesn't this work for me? And that just gives us data. It gives us information about how things play together. 

So, my background is, in biological and physical sciences. To start off with I looked at the tracking behavior of blue crabs with my doctoral research. And so that was very goal oriented behavior in a lot of ways. And so taking lots of pieces of information and trying to figure out how to reach a goal with all of that.

And then I moved into education cause that was really important for me of like, how do we understand things and communicate with each other and help students really find meaning in what they're doing and connections to the real world and give them the tools that they need to make their own interpretations in their own way in the world with the skills and kind of development that way. 

So I'm still in the field of education. Over the pandemic I started looking at the Astrology as a new tool to add to the toolbox. And got connected with you Fiona through the Varshaphal exploration of looking at our Solar year and how the Astronomical with the Astrological. 

[00:03:04] Fiona Marques: And I'm excited because I have with me today, two scientists, two science educators and it's going to help me with

the left brain and the right brain. 

Left is generally tends to be slightly more analytical, slightly more systematic, lists based ways. And right brain tends to be a little bit more holistic, perhaps. But again, we're all a mixture of all things. You can argue that, modern science is really, it's more right brained activity because you need a certain amount of imagination when you're developing sorts of ideas and developing theories. Exactly. And so in our conversation today we might have some quite factual based Astronomy stuff to talk about, and then we might move also into some quite imaginative stuff as well. And I think that's beautiful because the Moon in Astrology is a symbol for our imagination. And as you say, Steven, all scientists have to imagine their theories first, and then we can go and gather some facts to test these hypotheses or test these ideas. But we are integrated. So 

[00:04:06] What is a Lunar Standstill and what does it have to do with 18.6 years?

[00:04:06] Fiona Marques: let's begin with my invitation, Steven, the real reason that I invited you along today was that even I as the amateur Astronomer can notice that the Moon looks a little bit lower in the sky right now.

[00:04:19] Steven Jones: As I walk my dog, the last walk of the evening, I'm always, so happy if I get the chance to see the Moon, if there's not too many clouds, I can see what's going on. And I have an awareness of where the Moon rises. I have an awareness of where it would be at the zenith of the sky at the top when it's, like a Full Moon, I can look high up and see it. And I've just been noticing that it seems to rise in a different place and it seems a bit lower. What I think the fascinating element to this is that I was a little bit like, "Actually I'm not sure", which is, "I don't know" one of the greatest statements in science. I've I got a second so quite what is going on here. I I had to do it dig out, and do a little bit of reading as well.

I think fundamentally the problem with all of this is that it is very hard to visualize a three dimensional system. And I know certainly within my teaching I will, when teaching Astronomy, I've used pictures, but even pictures are of sometimes of limited help because they're 2D. And then even if you're watching 3D animations like on a video, then even that in a sense is still a two dimensional projection. So you've almost got to stand inside these things. 

The first thing is to say, if you find it really hard to visualize, join the rest of us. It is incredibly hard to visualize, but I think there's almost a sense of sorts of the important starting point is to realize what it is not. And I think we so much think of it as just this two dimensional thing, or like a picture you read in a book, or it's a flat plane. And I think that is, I think the biggest thing to recognize is that it is absolutely not that. 

And the fact that again we're on the sphere and then of course, during an Earth's rotation, our orientation of how we are presenting ourselves to the Moon is actually changing and so how the Moon looks is changing. And so it is a very complex system. 

This whole 18.6, 18.6 year cycle. I've got to say, I haven't come across. I had not heard about it.

[00:06:38] Fiona Marques: And that's where Astrologers or Vedic Astrologers might be like, "Oh, we know about our 18.6 year cycle because the cycle of the Nodes, the Lunar Nodes. is on that cycle as well. So that's a number that we would probably be like, Oh, I know something." 

[00:06:56] Steven Jones: The 18.6 year, I suppose people naturally have a perception of how the Sun moves in the sky. Actually, I'm going to completely take that back. I think a lot of people don't actually. And if you say to people, where does the Sun rise and where does it set? I think a lot of people, while they even have an issue going rises in the East and sets in the West, I'm not convinced how many people would even say that. Because people don't have a sense of North, South, East, West anymore because people don't need that in their daily lives. 

[00:07:29] Fiona Marques: So the fact that, people might be able to say some rises in the East, the sets in the West, but of course you might get that from some people, but then the fact that you will then go actually, some days he actually more rises in the Northeast or the Southeast. And again, I think to most people, that would be a surprise because to those people who are not looking at the sky, and actually, I think most of the time people are not looking at the sky. And on a daily basis, people's connection with the sky is probably less now than it has ever been. 

Exactly, this is why I got you and Jenn together today, because her tool is about helping us look at the sky and the Moon. And I think you're right, that we are disconnected from these phenomenon that are literally right out the window. 

[00:08:18] Steven Jones: Of course, most people are living in towns and cities now with light pollution. That's which is a whole other issue. People are not linked and they do not really know what's going on in the sky. 

The fact, I do have a sense of the sky, because I'm interested in Astronomy, I know over the course of a year that the path which the Sun takes across the sky changes. But again, the path which the Sun is taking is changing because it is a complex three dimensional system. And it's, and I suppose at this point we have to mention the Ecliptic. 

The way that I was taught it in the way that I teach it as well is that you can fundamentally think of the Ecliptic in two different ways. And that if we think about the Earth, which is in orbit around the Sun. As the Earth orbits the Sun it effectively orbits it in a plane if you like a two dimensional plane and we could call that the Ecliptic. So that is one way of thinking about it and so in, in terms of an orbital system, that is rather useful thinking of the Earth orbiting the Sun in the Ecliptic. And so then if we look at the other planets in the Solar System, most of the planets are orbiting not on the Ecliptic, but at angles close to it within a few degrees. Most of the minor planets, objects in the Kuiper belt and such beyond Neptune.So that's one way of thinking about the Ecliptic. If we look at the position of the Sun against the background stars, which appear to be fixed, they are not truly fixed, but in the sense they do appear to be fixed. So during the course of a night, those stars, those constellations, asterisms, they move across the sky because the Earth is spinning on its axis. But generally the relationship between those points of light, those stars, are fixed. So if we're watching the Sun over the course of a year, and I guess we all need to talk about what a year is in a moment as the Sun moves across the background stars, then the Sun's position against the background stars changes not just daily, minutely, secondly, and it changes. And if you join up, if you like, you plot the position of the Sun against the background constellations, the line that traces across the sky is the Ecliptic. 

[00:10:33] Fiona Marques: Because certainly within Astronomy we have the Celestial Sphere. And we talk about the Celestial Sphere almost like, all these stars and planets and nebula are like painted up on the inside surface of the Celestial Sphere and the Celestial Equator and Zero Right Ascension and all the Declination points. It is like we're backing with Ptolemy and we're in the geocentric. So we have a measurement system that looks at it that way. But then of course we have appreciation that over complex things happening. 

[00:11:00] Steven Jones: Perspective is the key here, of course. We were talking about, the 23.5 degrees, is the reason we have the seasons. 

So the fact that the Earth's axis of rotation, this imaginary line that you could put through the center of the Earth like you've got a globe, so that stick, if you like, that axis is at 23 degrees to the Ecliptic. So the fact that we have this axis at 23.5 degrees is why during the course of a year the passage of the Earth's orbit around the Sun means that the path which the Sun takes across the sky varies. And so we have the Sun is higher in the sky in the Summer

So I think people may have a sense of that but then of course the Moon does the same thing so the Moon is orbiting at about 5 degrees to the Ecliptic. Again, I think because there was quite a big eclipse Solar eclipse recently, just because it, the path of totality went right across the U. S. 

[00:12:03] Fiona Marques: But anyway, as the Moon is orbiting the Earth, if everything was on just this flat plane that people would imagine, then we'd be getting the eclipses every lunar month. But then the fact that the orientation of the Moon's orbit is at 5 degrees to the Ecliptic means you've gotta wait for the Earth or the Moon to just to to line up. 

[00:12:22] Steven Jones: So the bit that actually I hadn't realized, the 18.6 is that if you think about the orbit of the Moon now, and think of that as like a little record, a little disc that sort of tilted 5 degrees, the Ecliptic. So if you imagine this, the plane of the orbit of the Moon, and we put a little stick at 90 degrees to that. So that, again, is pointing up at 5 degrees to the Ecliptic. But that little stick, if you like, that sort of axis of the orbit of the Moon, is precessing. And that's precessing and that's got the 18.6 years. So I was actually and I hadn't realised that, so it was a quite nice learning experience for me. It's actually, it's quite fast actually. So the fact you've got 18.6 years precession, so the angle, the Moon is at, the 5 degrees stays the same. But the angle at which the axis is pointing is sweeping around like a spinning top or a gyroscope moving around. And so that then is shifting the path which the Moon takes across the sky. And so that's how we end up with the sort of the, the maximum altitude of the Moon across above the horizon, is changing. And of course, when you get to these stationary points, which is another big thing in sort of Astronomy, because we've just passed one of these points, I believe. I think we've just, I think we've, it's back in May or something, wasn't it? So if we are constantly watching, if you like, the position of where the Moon is rising or setting on the horizon, we will notice that is shifting during the course of the year and then over this 18.6 year cycle. And I think we've reached a maximum, haven't we? So the, it's the. the maximum amount, which I think the angle between which the Moon rises and sets. And so I think the precession thing is interesting because as you were saying, the Earth is possessing, but the Earth processes it's something there. It's 20-odd thousand years

[00:14:19] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Very 

[00:14:20] Steven Jones: slowly. 

Precession of the Earth.

But the Moon is on the 18.6. That's the rationale for it. But it's something which it's not easy to notice unless you're really going out of your way to watch it. 

But hopefully the invitation now is out there to pop out as soon as you hear this episode, whatever night it is, go out and have a look because I think it's quite perceivable. 

And Jenn, have you noticed the Moon way where you live?

[00:14:47] Jenn Page: Yeah, and I do! I, I loved two things you said, Steven, talking about starting off saying with "I don't know", as being one of the most powerful phrases that we have in science. And there were things that I hadn't considered about why the Moon would be lower in the sky and your connection to the tilt of the Earth and with the Sun and how that shifts. Because people are normally more awake during the day to see that element of "Okay, if you from your window every day or looking across the span of the year and being able to see where along the horizon the Sun is actually coming up or where along the horizon, it's setting, it can give you that sense of okay higher, lower in the sky, that element of it". 

And that really helped connect the two things with the Moon for me that I hadn't considered or thought about before of like it's tilt being off of the Ecliptic and causing similar pieces. So that was just fun. 

And I'll say also that it really hasn't been that many years where I've recognized that the Moon even rises or sets at different points in the night. So when you were talking about what things people take for granted or don't actually know about the East-West of the Sun rising and setting and whatnot, and how it might be a little more Northeast or Southeast or whatnot. It wasn't until I started paying attention even to the Moon to recognize, "Oh, okay. So when it's the Full Moon, when I'm actually like super paying attention to it, that's when it's it's really doing the full arc of the night sky when I would think of being like, Oh, the Moon's out all night versus when it's", even though I knew the science behind why we had the reflection and what the relationship was to the Moon, Earth, Sun, for some reason, that never translated to me thinking about the timing of the rising and the setting until I really started thinking about it and looking at it. 

So yes, I've noticed that it's lower in the sky. It just amazes me how many things are happening that unless you actually pay attention to them and really think about them,

it becomes even more fascinating. 

[00:16:46] What is the Metonic Cycle and 19 years about then?

[00:16:46] Jenn Page: The thing is, I find the Metonic elements, I find this more interesting 'cause this sort of comes back again to the sense of time. And that I find it utterly fascinating how we have used the Sun as a way of measuring time and not the Moon. But of course, you've got lots of cultures that are using the Moon as a way to measure time and there's an awful lot of sense in that. There is an awful lot of sense. But then if you're using the Sun to measure time and there's an awful lot of sense to that as well, but the two systems don't, don't match. 

[00:17:30] Fiona Marques: So the Moon, in some ways it has, 27 sort of day cycle, but in other ways it's 29 because since the time that the last New Moon was, the Earth has also orbited. 

[00:17:41] Steven Jones: 27.3 days is the orbital period, which is correct. But then of course, because the Earth is orbiting the Sun, it's 29.5 for that three dimensional orientation to get back correct. So you've got in one year 12.368 lunar months.

Okay. So and this is where the whole 19 year thing comes into it. Cause it just turns out that if you multiply it all up.

it's so wonderful because actually, 19 Earth years, after 19 Earth years, you actually, the number of synodic, or lunar months, is 234.992 months. So it's basically, it's almost an exact number of months. 

And you've got this sort of wonderful thing where, you know, it just so happens that every 19 years, not exactly, it's close, every 19 years you get this thing where the Moon will be in exactly the same point in its lunar cycle on that particular calendar day, if we're measuring dates using the Sun. 

And again, it is just, it's just down to orbital periods. And come back in a couple of million years and it won't be 19 years, The cycle will change again. And so whereas the 18.6 year cycle is very much fixed. And the lunar standstill that will happen at this point. If we decide to look at where the Moon is tonight in its position, you know in its phase on this date, then in 19 years time, it will be in the same phase and it is, it's just one of these nice little things, but the fact that it's close to 18.6, it's completely unrelated.

So you have these interesting connected things and then other things which are just flukes. But while I'm, where I'm interested, and this is where I've been fascinated to hear Jen's view on this, is that I, as an Astronomer I am interested in the mechanics of it, and I'm also interested in the historical nature of this as well, and that is also interesting. But I think the thing is that, whereas, it's the fact that I am taking notice. Now, I take notice and view it in an Astronomical way. ButI guess there are other ways of viewing the Moon and taking notice. And I suppose it's almost stick your head above the ground, take a look away from your phone for a moment and just watch what's happening in the world. And I suppose that's where I think there's something to learn from here.

[00:20:25] How can I use the Moon for Planning?

[00:20:25] Jenn Page: When your comment about the time part too and how fascinated you are with these different concepts of time I was recognizing that's essentially part of why I got into the looking at the Moon planning because I work in a government environment and just in environments in general where we use a calendar month, like everybody has these dated planners or diaries or whatnot that are based off of the 1st through the 30th or 31st or whatever, and the reorientation to this kind of Sun cycle over and over again, and recognizing that there's also this Lunar cycle that's going on and all the things in my day get oriented towards the hours of the day in relation to the Sun, the month, the year, the whatever. 

And it was actually making it harder for me to create my own personal plans and goals because I kept mapping them on to the cycles that everybody else was operating on and expecting me to do things on with my work environment. And so I would default to my work is the most important thing and the Sun cycle is the most important thing. And the, like the, it was the centric part of this is how we're measuring time and agreeing to, to move on together. 

And what I, when I started paying more attention to the Moon, this was actually back in my days as a director of education on an Island off the coast of Maine. And so it was off the grid, 12 miles off the coast, so the light pollution went way down and you could really see the Astronomical phenomenon a lot better. And we also were working with the kids in a tidal environment, so that connection to the Moon of really having to pay attention to what part of the tidal cycle we were on for how high or low those tides were, and at what point in the day they were happening because, If you can have a great low tide in the middle of the night, but you don't want to have little kids running around in that low tide environment when you can't see them. And so it was mapping all of those things. We worked on Moon cycles in a lot of ways to work with kids in the marine science environment. 

And when I started looking at it for personal time management, it took me out of the mindset of my work is the most important thing about me and what I need to prioritize and help me shift a little bit like, "All right, if I do it on this other time scale, what could I prioritize on this time scale that I could cyclically come back to on a regular basis that is not based on the calendar year and the way that everybody else is doing their things". I basically put my own personal goal setting, like what do I want to do with my relationships and what do I want to do with my hobbies or my finances or whatever, I put that review cycle on the Moon cycle, because it shifted things enough all the time compared to your normal Sunday through Saturday work, like work week that I didn't get into a rut where the work was always put as the most important and the first thing.

So that's really that conception of time. And how we do it traditionally versus these other ways of knowing about time or thinking about time is really how I got into thinking about these things and how we can, how I can use what like you said, historically has been a really important source of information for cultures for a long period of time that we really don't do a lot with right now, and if I try to map my experience, map my goals, all those things onto a Moon cycle provides a greater awareness, I think, of just the purpose, like being purposeful about on this cycle, I will be looking at things. And I've found that really helpful.

[00:24:28] Fiona Marques: What I've done in a variety of different formats is basically create a semicircle, a half circle that's divided into 30 different sections coming out from the center. And so it's like this radial sunburst design that allows me to track where I'm at in the Full Moon cycle. So the 30 sections allows me to look at a full from New Moon all the way around to the next New Moon cycle. 

[00:24:56] Jenn Page: But I've created spaces in that diagram that allow me to then also put down the day of the week or the calendar day whether it's a Monday or it's a, the 3rd of December or whatever it is and within all of that, I can track whatever I want to track in each 1 of those 30 sections. And that acknowledgment of there are these 30 different little divisions that are possible across this whole moon cycle and that different stages across the Moon cycle, I can have check in points where I'm seeing whether or not the things that Astrology is telling me is matching up with my personal experience. Both predictively, like saying, okay, "Next week on Tuesday, this is what the Astrology is coming up with for a story and narrative about how the world or how I will be affected by this day". And then retroactively to going backwards and saying, "Okay, yesterday, this is what's was supposed to be a play. Did that actually come to fruition?" And I can do that really technically of saying, really clearly that the Moon square Neptune in Pisces or whatever it is. 

And I can also be like, "All right. So it was a New Moon and Sagittarius. What generally speaking is the energy that's associated with a New Moon? And New Moon being the, like the dark moon or that there's I have no, no moon showing in the sky really. And so that kind of like introspective, dark, not worried about putting a lot of energy out into the world type of feel to it. Okay. What does Sagittarius mean? Within the broader scope?" 

And so those types of things can help me at a very base level, look at a theme and then say, from an intuitive standpoint, just if I said to you "Oh my gosh, oatmeal for breakfast is the best thing in the world!" You might have a reaction to that where you're like, "Holy cow. No, I eggs toast, warm things. What are you talking about?" But by me giving you that this is my opinion or my thought process of this is my truth, you have a reaction to what that truth is that tells you something about yourself of "No. Oatmeal is not my thing. Glad it's her thing. That's all right". 

And that's what I'm doing with my testing on the Astrology. The entire way along is "Okay, it's telling me this. Am I having one of these like big reactions of I was so not what my day was. And that is, does not relate at all. Or am I having one of those? Huh? I hadn't thought about it that way. Okay". 

If I go at it with the framing, I'm going into a big meeting tomorrow, if I'm going at it with the framing that the Astrology is telling me, it's a good day for me to really speak influentially, I might be more apt to look for opportunities in that meeting where I'm like, okay, how can I positively influence what we're working on right now? What could I say? How could I say it that helps? 

And so it's just a, it's a flavor, it's a thought, it's a experiment. Every time is like a little dose of data of "Does this work? Doesn't this work?" from an external perspective, but also, "Huh, I hadn't thought about that internally and without looking at this piece of data, it wouldn't have come up. I wouldn't have recognized that this could be a way I could look at it or pay attention to it". 

So that's my flexible Moon planning from the dial standpoint of being able to look at something that you care about over the course of the entire Moon cycle and create moments of checking in with yourself that isn't on everybody else's quote unquote calendar. I'm saying they say when you're supposed to do the thing, it's all right. I'm going to connect a little bit more with what's going on out in the world".

[00:29:15] Steven Jones: Jenn, I just want to ask a question about your your picture there. So for the people who are actually watching it, so you've got this wonderful semi circle there. So you've got little squares next to the the Moon cycles. So are you like writing in there or coloring in maybe? Or are you, is that just aesthetic? Are you putting numbers there or something? 

So you can color in and I think that is a great, like when you're first trying to figure out what does this look like for my like my mood or the weather in the day and how that was affecting my mood or whatever it is. In that outer ring of the Moon tracker what I try and do is I'll put in the actual time related things as the rest of the world sees it. So it'll be today is July 21st and it's Sunday. So those two things would go in those boxes. I would be keeping track of the Moon phase and when it changes from sign to sign in the middle rings. And in the center rings, sometimes I'll actually put in whatever the Astronomical connection is of where is Pluto in the sky or where is whatever. And other times it will be like if I'm looking at my energy across the whole phase of the Moon, I can create a color code that says that, blue is lower energy, red is higher energy, and I can just create a beautifully colored diagram, but see when across the whole cycle, I might be more energetic or less energetic. And what, put a little note on top of the color that says, "Oh, today was the day I stayed in or I saw friends." Or what else is, what other data do I want to collect that I think might be interesting to look at. I think that's the key thing is, it could be when do I plant stuff in my garden and what happens to the thing in the garden that based on when I planted it, which is a lot more historically what we were seeing happen of when in the Moon cycle, do you plant seeds? And then what happens with the resulting. So I tried to make it as flexible for myself as possible. And then each month, I just am really paying attention to what do I want to, what kind of data do I want to collect this month? I just desperately want to turn the chart into a graph, and start plotting it. Yes, you've probably yourself, haven't you, being a Leftbrainer? Um, It's probably really appropriate for me just to to mention at this point, 

whereas, I personally don't use Astrology, and it is not something that I personally find useful for me. But I suppose as the years have gone over, I've become more and more aware that it is important for people to have some means of self reflection And it's sticking your head above the ground or whatever and looking and recognizing that things are changing externally maybe internally. So I completely see how some people and it was so interesting Jenn when you said this something comes up from the chart or whatever and it might be "Oh, maybe that's something to think about or reflect upon." And I think anything that gives a prompt for people to have that form of self reflection I think can only be a good thing. I personally don't find it useful But that doesn't mean that I don't think it can be useful. There are areas where Astrology can go into certain things, which I think can be very unhelpful, but you could say that about any branch of human endeavor. And I've certainly done things like tracking my own moodas a self care sort of thing. And I've number system over, over dates and times. 

[00:32:58] Jenn Page: When I first started dabbling with Astrology, honestly, like from the scientific standpoint, some of the stuff that you were talking about Fiona of "Oh, being associated with the Astrology as a scientific person or as a, be that stigma associated with it" that doesn't necessarily need to be there because it really is, like you said, Steven, the, it doesn't matter what human endeavor we go into, there is always this continuum of helpful elements or challenging elements. It's not that anything that we get into is all helpful or all not helpful. Or all good or all bad. It's what elements are you taking? What are you using them for? 

And so I really, that's why I keep looking at things as, so regardless of what it is, it's a tool and how we use it is what provides the value to us as an individual or to other people. And I'm just laughing cause like even your comments on the tracking, like I have so many bullet journal things where I'm like tracking my mood and different things during the day. And that element of self study and self reflection. As I've understood myself better, it helps me understand other people and relate to other people more as well. So I think that in the type of kind of polarizing world that we're in right now, the more things we can do to self reflect and the more things we can do to have these conversations where we might not all agree on the same thing or how it's used or whatnot, but that we can see all the different points and the values and the ways of looking at something. There's so much value in that, and especially value in helping students be in that space of, "I don't know, I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to listen and have those dialogues". Which the IB curriculum is really good at. And you as an IB teacher are really good at. Those are so valuable for, I think, the world that we live in and how we interact as humans across all these areas of difference. 

[00:34:58] Steven Jones: I think on our conversation today, it's been really interesting to, to contrast the Sun and the Moon which we've spoken about so much, the Sun and the Moon in this. conversation. And in Astrology, we allocate qualities like masculinity and consistency to the Sun. And to being direct to being externally focused. And to the Moon, we allocate qualities like intuition and reflection and femininity. 

[00:35:28] Fiona Marques: And looking at these different ways of monitoring our life. So we were talking about monitoring it through the calendar, the normal Solar calendar with its months and its dates and its Mondays and Tuesdays. And yet when we take the opportunity to monitor it through the Moon, which you've been experimenting with and which we looked at the template today, did you find that it naturally lends itself to more intuition or more openness to reflection versus doing a Solar day calendar kind of method. 

[00:36:03] Jenn Page: Part of the reason that I think it helps me with that reflection is thaton a shorter time period than the Sun, we see this change in light. And so we have a dark period and a light period back to a dark period. 

I am somebody who's been very perfectionistic, achievement oriented go. Like I, I didn't always understand the concept of that fading and that cyclic okay, sometimes I need to put out more energy, sometimes I need to rest because our society tends to reward that outward facing, putting things out type of energy. And so the Moon started as a self imposed cycle of I'm going to do more at some points and then I'm going to purposely not do as much as other points. And so instead of starting off as being a, "Oh, how do I feel at this point?" It's "No, gosh, darn it. It is the New Moon. It is dark. I'm going to force myself to just slow the heck down". 

And so for whichever direction the influence is coming from at this point, I now have more of these cycles in my time and I put more value on the retreat time of not always being on go. And so I don't know chicken egg type of philosophy, like which came first of is it, which part is influencing what, but by continuing to come back to that cycle and reflecting at various points during the cycle and being purposeful about, "Okay, I need to have natural rhythms. I can't just be producing out there interacting all the time". That's. That's just been hugely valuable to me, and I've been able to map experiences onto that, as well as purposely plan experiences that way.

[00:38:02] Fiona Marques: Wow. I'm mind blown by that. Now that I've heard that from you, I think that in my life I experience very much the ups and downs of life. And the ups and downs of energy levels and enthusiasm. So the thought of consciously having to program that "Hey, let's have some downtime" is just mind blowing to me.

But isn't that interesting, helpful, amazing that our enthusiasm and our output, maybe it isn't supposed to be 100 percent every day, all day, 365 days a year. And some people are going to be more naturally in tune with an energy up and down cycle inside themselves and might like to use a Solar method to be more consistent with their energy.

And then some people are going to be naturally very consistent with their energy and maybe benefit from experimenting with the ebb and flow. 

[00:38:53] How can I work with Jenn to tailor my planning?

[00:38:53] Jenn Page: Is there a way for people to contact you, Jenn, or if somebody's interested in monitoring the Moon, is your template available? Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah. I can definitely add stuff for Fiona to put in the show notes so that there'sthe direct contact. My email contact is just jenn at selftosystems.com J E N N two N's. And the types of tools that I've been talking about today for people to be able to download and interact with and learn more about in a variety of different ways.

There's kind of entry level, quick, easy, blank templates for you to use. There are more colorful ones, all of those types of things. We'll have a link to that. And just also happy to connect with anybody around these types of philosophical, how do we manage time? How do we think about ourselves? Any of those types of things? Would love to connect.

[00:39:44] Fiona Marques: I really looking and talking with people about what's going on in their life, how they work, how they think, and then trying to think about what tools actually could, might, should help. I don't think one tool, one person is necessarily the right fit because we also go through seasons and cycles of our own life and what's going to work for us this month may not work at all for next month.

[00:40:07] Jenn Page: Whether it's, you've got a new child in the household, you change jobs. Just as we age and our philosophy changes. Yes, there's the Moon cycle planning, but then also some of the tools that I've got link the Moon cycle with, "Okay, from a weekly quarterly annually type of thing, how do we, how do you look at your whole balance of your life and not just put all your energy into work?" Put some into work and some into family and some into finances or security or fun or whatever the pieces are. And even the idea of the bullet journaling system of like, how do you track the present and then mindfully think about the future?

So whether it's my tools or other tools it goes across, across all the different areas of life and what works best for people. 

[00:40:54] Fiona Marques: And that's a beautiful full circle moment because that's actually how Jenn and I met is that a friend of mine approached Jenn about developing a unique system, a reflection system and planning system. And then that's how we connected then through that mutual friend.

So you never know what, what might come of that. I like that. It's using a tried and true scientific method, isn't it? Observation is a very important part of being a scientist, is just noting down things and this is what you're bringing in to, although it's this particular system that, that we're talking about on the podcast, cause it's the Vedic Astrology Podcast, we're talking about a Moon system. But it's just bringing in that data analysis. It's looking for patterns, noting down something that I want to focus on, like you suggested, might be energy level, or maybe it's your mood, or maybe it's what you eat each day, or exercise level, or anything. Whatever we put our attention to, that's what we can make decisions about or make observation stories about. And if we don't pay any attention to it, all of that information just passes on by. So we're using the skill of observation.

[00:42:08] Jenn Page: And recognizing it goes across all different disciplines and ways of thinking about it. Like whether you're a chef and the concept of mise en place, where you've got the, all of the organization pieces and the awareness that goes into how do you run a kitchen effectively, efficiently, or whatever. There's data pieces that go into it, and then there's the system that you create that helps to move things smoothly. 

And it's the same thing for a teacher when you're thinking about lesson plans, and whether you're a little more experienced and fly by the seat of your pants in terms of I have done this lesson a bunch of times, and I will be able to roll into tomorrow, and I'm good to go. Or you need to really plan things out minute by minute. 

And those types of things not only change with the environment that we have, but with the person and what else is going on. 

I think there's the, "What do we track? How do we track it? And then how do you move beyond just tracking something and actually making meaning out of it or taking action from it?" And all of those things have personalization and flexibility associated with them that are just, that's where you make it meaningful for you.

[00:43:13] Fiona Marques: Yeah. And that's where people might like to work with you to develop their own unique system. 

[00:43:18] Conclusion and Farewell

[00:43:18] Fiona Marques: Then all it is left for me is to thank you both so much for being generous with your time today and indulging my interest in the Moon and what might be going on up there in the sky and what I could also do to observe and use the Moon as a goal setting or reflection setting tool. 

[00:43:36] Jenn Page: I really appreciate everything that you guys have contributed. And I can't wait till the next chance that we, all the three of us get together to be here on the Vedic Astrology podcast again. All right.

[00:43:46] Steven Jones: Thank you guys. Thank you. Pleasure.

[00:43:49] Fiona Marques: Thanks everyone.

We'll see you again soon. But bye for now.

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