Exploring the Imagery at the End of the Vedic Zodiac - Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces

Exploring the Imagery at the End of the Vedic Zodiac - Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces

[00:00:00] Welcome and Introduction

[00:00:00] Fiona Marques: Hello everyone. Welcome to The Vedic Astrology Podcast. My name is Fiona Marques and I'm delighted today to be discussing the imagery of the final signs of the Vedic Zodiac. It's a beautiful time of year right now when the Sun is traveling through Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces. And for those of you who follow the podcast regularly, you'll know that every time the Sun changed signs, we've spent an episode exploring. Understanding that sign through the Sun's transit. 

And although that series has come to an end, I feel like a really nice way to wrap it up is to look at the imagery of these final signs altogether. And that's why I was thrilled when recently one of the students from the Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship Program handed in her first batches of essays, and those essays ask our students to reflect on the ancient Sutras of Vedic Astrology and speak about the evolution of these Rasis. How one Rasi leads us to the next Rasi. 

And this is one of, in my mind, the very beautiful things about being a Vedic Astrologer or a student of Vedic Astrology is our connection to these ancient texts, which are lost in the annals of time. We don't know exactly the whole story of how each of these texts has been narrated and captured and recorded and preserved. So I agree that we don't know everything about them, but they provide for each of us as students of Vedic Astrology, a link to a long lineage of hundreds and thousands of people before us who have thought about these same Sutras as they've begun to learn about Vedic Astrology. So it's a very beautiful component of Vedic Astrology and a very beautiful place to start our Apprenticeship. 

And to help me discuss the imagery of these final signs of the Vedic Zodiac, I have invited Michaela to join me. Michaela, welcome to the Vedic Astrology Podcast. And can you tell us a little bit about your interest in astrology? How is it that you came to study Vedic Astrology?

[00:02:20] Michaela: Thank you very much, Fiona. I'm delighted to be here. Been a listener of your podcast for a long time, so it's a pleasure to be here with you today. Astrology is a new passion for me, one can say. I've come from a yogic background. I've been doing yoga and studying yoga philosophy, et cetera, for the past 15 years or so. And then just two years ago, one of my teachers did a series of classes that had the planets as the main focus. Each of the class had a focus on one planet. And the way she described these planets as being part of every one of us, like being a part of our inner psychological landscape and how each of these planets can function within every person got me really interestedto looking into more of Jyotish and Astrology. And so one step after the other, I started listening and reading and following and enrolling into this Apprenticeship program just in September of last year. The program is so rich and asks us to make sense of it within ourselves by contemplating the Sutras and making sense of it from within. So this is really interesting for me to not just learn something by heart and be able to see a chart and then analyze it from learned knowledge, but actually contemplating and so that it becomes embodied knowledge and translate into wisdom. And so having this opportunity within the Apprenticeship Program to actually write an essay on a topic and have it read by someone and then discuss it and being able to be challenged and what you think about it. And then, every single time you look at these Sutras you find more and more meaning and the meaning changes for you as well as you evolve in your life, et cetera.

SoAstrology is a topic that is rich and that is never ending. And so when you are a student of life it's one of the best topics to be interested in.

I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid. I thought about it, how I was really interested in Astronomy. And I did not get into it. So now I'm connecting with the stars in a different way.

[00:04:40] Fiona Marques: I can completely relate to that as well, Michaela. I really enjoyed Astronomy. I loved looking up the night sky andit's amazing how life takes us on a journey and something that we knew in our childhood, comes to fruition later in life. Two fellow children here inside these bodies who were fellow aspiring astronauts. 

So then Michaela, we have a large task in front of us with this podcast because this is, as you said, something very rich that can be discussed at length. But to bring everybody into our conversation, I thought we might share the short Sutras in relation to Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces so that everybody's on the same page with us. So for those of us listening along, you might like to find a quiet moment. And Michaela and I are just gonna share from these different Sutras. 

[00:05:32] The Sutras describing Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces

[00:05:32] Fiona Marques: We've got three sources that we ask our first year apprentices to consult when they're looking at imagery. One is the Jaimini Sutras. And in some ways this is quite the mysterious Vedic Astrology book, and its Sutras are always the shortest in a way, and give us the most opportunity to really contemplate and try to understand what could possibly be there. For people like myself, I hadn't grown up in a Vedic tradition, perhaps the Jaimini Sutras a little bit more, encoded a little bit like we might think of Nostradamus apparently made all of these predictions in order and very clear. And then he went back and mixed them all up and made them a little harder to understand just so that only true seekers can gain access to this information. So Jaimini has a little bit that kind of flavor to it that it asks us to be detectives in understanding these Sutras, we're gonna have a look at those Sutras. 

There's also some Sutras in Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra that we're gonna have a look at. And that is a book that we consult a lot as Vedic astrologers because it has a lot of definitions of how to calculate various strengths of planets and houses and how things interact with each other. So it becomes our kind of go-to in understanding all of the components that can make up a chart and what's important. So probably spend a lot of time consulting that text. 

And then the third text we ask our students to have a look at is the Yavana Jataka. Which is a very beautiful text that I also don't know the full origin of, but connects Vedic Astrology with Greek astrology very clearly. So who met who at what time and influenced whom and whether it's a translation from Greek into Sanskrit, or whether it was in Sanskrit and translated into Greek and back again, there is all this mystery about it. But for those of us who may be come to astrology from Western astrology, we might recognize in the Yavana Jataka some of the things that we're very familiar with.

[00:07:35] Michaela: So there's a beautiful different quality to each of these three texts. So then Michaela, let's turn our attention to Capricorn. So for Capricorn, what Jaimini says about Capricorn is "Aquatic animals. Things moving in the air, planets, birds, et cetera, villages, Kapha disorders, itches, defects and guilt. Tumors and joint problems in Capricorn". 

[00:08:06] Fiona Marques: Then we have Yavana Jataka and there it said "The 10th (so Capricorn) is related to a sea monster. The front is like that of a deer, the hind of a fish. This sign represents the knees of the creator. Here are rivers, forests, woods, paths, marshes, and pits".

[00:08:29] Michaela: And then we have Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. 

Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra gives systematic descriptions of the signs. And about Capricorn, Parashara says "The color is spotted, or many colored. It is large limbed. It is four footed at the beginning and without feet at the end. It is vigorous at night. The direction is south. It's moving in watery ground. The guna is Tamas and it's back rising".

[00:08:59] Fiona Marques: They each take their own approach, don't they, to describing this sign. And there's so much in just Capricorn for us to consider, but we don't stop there. We ask our apprentices to weave together three signs. 

So I now I'm gonna share with you Aquarius, that in Jaimini Sutras, it says, "Makers of ponds, tanks, things related to shores, in Aquarius. In the Yavana Jataka, it is said "In the 11th sign, we see a pot being carried on the shoulder of a man and being poured out. This sign is the shanks of the cosmic person. It indicates tanks, fields of poor grain, haunts of birds, areas suitable for women, liquor sellers/cellars, and gambling". And then finally from Brihat Parashara, "Deep brown is the color, medium bodied, two feet vigorous during the day. The direction is west, the class is the Sudra or serving class. Standing in the middle of the waters. The guna is Tamas, and it is front rising. So even though both of these signs are owned by Saturn, we see quite some difference from Brihat Parashara, back rising, front rising. We've got the standing versus the moving in the water. We've definitely got some good things to discuss there, but that doesn't bring us yet to the end because Pisces, what are the descriptions for Pisces?

[00:10:36] Michaela: In Pisces for Jaimini, it's pretty simple. It's "Elevation perpetual Dharma, and Kaivalyam". 

In the Yavana Jataka we say "The final sign shows a pair of fish in water. It is said to be the best sign and represents the feet of time. Its places are auspicious. Here there are gods knowers of Brahma, pilgrimages, rivers, oceans and clouds". 

And then to complete with the Parashara, we have "Medium bodied, footless day strong in the direction of north. Moving in the water. The guna is Sattva. And it's rising both ways.

[00:11:22] Fiona Marques: Exactly. And in preparing those statements, I didn't put the color for Pisces, which is very good because there is no color for Pisces. It's completely transparent. So it's great. That was like a good good way of demonstrating that no color was just not, not mentioning it at all. But we should probably mention that there's no color associated with Pisces.

[00:11:43] Michaela: So this was your assignment was here is all of this imagery. And how did you begin to make some sense of this? How did you approach the essay? 

[00:11:53] Fiona Marques: We were asked to consider these three consecutive signs of Zodiac in order to see how human consciousness evolves. And how this zodiac can be symbolic of the evolution of the human consciousness. 

[00:12:06] Michaela: So astrology is interesting because it's like at school we had these it was be before computers were everywhere, these projectors where you would put transparent foils on the projector and it would project something on the wall, right? And then the teacher would draw, for example, an outline of a snail, and then they, and there would be another fall put on top, and that would be the lymphatic system.

And then there will be the circulatory system and the respiratory system, whatever. And then foil after foil, after foil, you will have the full picture of the object in front of you. It's the same with astrology, I feel. Like there is a layer after layer and you can choose which, which lens you wanna look through to, to get the insight.

So we have the symbolism of the signs, and we also have the numerology of the signs. And there are interlinked. That's not two separate things. But just the numerology sometimes is very clear and easy to understand because now we're at sign 10, 11, and 12. And 10, 11 and 12, from a numerological perspective, it's a different cycle that we are starting.

We've been on a journey from one to nine, we've completed the cycle. Nine is the last one digit number. And now we are entering a new territory. We are entering the one plus zero and one plus one and one plus two. Where two digits create something together. 

So the way I see it is that in the first cycle, it's your personal experience that you gather throughout life. And now in the second cycle, the cycle 2.0, you see how you can use everything that you've learned up until now for the larger community, for the greater good for you and someone else. So the one plus something else, it's the you plus something else.

So the symbolism and also the energies of these signs after 10 are much more more turned towards, merging with the whole and doing things because it's asked of you, because it's necessary for the community and for the world, and not because you as a person, the one that was born in this world wish to do it.

It's more, okay now I've done my experiences. I've done what I wanted to do and what I needed to do on my path, and now how can I use it for the greater good? 

[00:14:30] Capricorn Imagery

[00:14:30] Michaela: And so Capricorn is really a very good example of this. How can I use this for for the greater good? Because it's a sign that is about doing things, not because you want to do them, but because you need to do them. Because you are the only person through which these actions can flow at this point in time. And so you are asked to carry them out. However hard it might be. However however not noble or not auspicious or not glamorous, it might be kept recovering with its ruler of Saturn just asks you to go on with it and do it.

[00:15:16] Fiona Marques: It makes me think of when you were sharing the indications, the imagery of Capricorn, that it's related to the knees of the creator that comes from that Yavana Jataka statement, doesn't it? And Capricorn asks us to fall to our knees, as you said it's not glamorous, it's not work that we do for our ego recognition. It's the actions that must be done.

[00:15:42] Michaela: Exactly, it's the actions that must be done. And with the knees and Saturn, as its ruler, maybe some of us have already experienced problems with our knees and how difficult it is not to be able to move in this world. But in Vedic mythology as well, Saturn has this bad rap of bringing you to your knees, as you said, and just showing you the path, the hard way, whatever it takes. If you don't understand, Saturn will show you and if necessary, it will be the hard way. 

But of course it's for the greater good. And so Saturn and Capricorn asks you to actually surrender, to surrender to something larger and to let it flow through you. And if you're not able to do it, then as Jaimini describes, there might be these itches and defects and the guilt and the problem with the joints. So these are the negative consequences of when you're not working well with Capricorn, where you, and you haven't understood what you're supposed to give to the community yet. 

And yeah, because I'm from the yoga background, I straight away this brings to mind the Patanjali's Yoga Sutra, where he talks about what we need is discipline. It's the trust towards a bigger force. And it's how we get there is through the study of self. So this is exactly Saturn for me, it's the Tapas, it's the discipline. You really need the discipline to do the things, whatever it takes, even if it's hard. And at the same time, you just need to surrender because you might not exactly understand why you are asked to do this, or you might not go your way, but you are asked to surrender to something bigger, to the universe, to whatever the word is you wanna put on this.

 How can you do it in sign 10? It's because you've learned so much already in one to nine. In, in, in this first part of the human evolution, you've learned to know yourself with this capital "S" as well, maybe through Svādhyāya. So the knowledge of text and of self, of your experiences. And so here it really comes with, it's, as I say, it's where the rubber hits the road. This is where you need to prove that you've understood your lessons and put them into 

[00:18:03] Fiona Marques: Yeah. And Capricorn has that Tamasic nature that it brings problems into our awareness, or our awareness becomes focused on problems. It's a, it's an earth sign and you just said the rubber hitting the road, and Saturn has this downward looking approach. So there's, there is a certain heaviness to just completing these actions. But again, Saturn gives us the endurance and perseverance to do that. It may not be gracefully. It may not be pirouetting around lightly on our toes. It, it might take every bead of sweat that we have. But isn't it amazing that in the human condition part of the ecliptic, one 12th of the ecliptic is devoted to this ability to move forward regardless of how hard the task is?

And we all need that grit in our lives from time to time. So it's a great blessing that our ecliptic has this segment related to Capricorn, because it helps us to get through life.

[00:19:08] Michaela: And for each of us, it will be in a different area of our lives where this will be more present. That it's it's good to know that it's just a natural part of human existence, right? In the west, we always want to see the positive side winning over the negative. And in, in the yogic vedic philosophies, it's all about both/and. There are devils and the angels if you want in each and every one of us all at the same time. There is the positive and the negative there is the dualities coexist all the time, and one doesn't exclude the other. So, it really teaches us that as well, I 

[00:19:49] Fiona Marques: Yeah.

Then I think one of the flavors that comes through with Capricorn is a real richness of resources. So it's very interesting, Capricorn, because it is extremely difficult and it makes that clear, the imagery that we're talking about, but it's rivers, it's marshes, it's wood, there's paths, so I feel that if people get a chance to consult these texts or if they come on the Apprenticeship or if they go read some of the other essays that are there other descriptions are not so bountiful with resources. Different signs don't necessarily have as much. And so Capricorn, although it makes us work really hard, there are actually the resources we need there to support us. 

[00:20:32] Aquarius Imagery

[00:20:32] Fiona Marques: And then that leads us towards Aquarius because there's a change in the imagery and description because Aquarius, no matter which one we read the imagery for Aquarius has this sense of pooling the resources and creating something that we can all benefit from.

[00:20:52] Michaela: yes, exactly. It's the maker of ponds and tanks, right? It's the provider of the water to the community because without water, nothing can happen in the human life. And with that if it's lived out in a positive manner, it creates those areas suitable for women. Where the community can thrive and people really benefit from what we can provide to them. So from the water.

So it's maker of ponds and tanks, and at the same time also this pot being carried on the shoulder of a man and being poured out. So in one, one, symbolic representation can feel like I pour everything I have towards for the community, all the love, all the resources, all the good things I have to share. I pour it out. So it's more on the material level. 

On the other side, the pouring of the pots can be symbolic of all our notions and preconceptions and our habitual actions and what we think, which roles we play in this world, et cetera. Everything that we see as us being this one personality, we just pour it out in order to be able to merge with the All, with the universe.

So there are these two in astrology, it's also interesting because we always have a materialistic interpretation of things mundane in this world. Concrete. And we also have this more philosophical or spiritual interpretation of these symbols. And both are valid because we live in this dual reality that where both coexist, the material and the spiritual.

But indeed, although it's a Saturn ruled sign as well, it has totally different qualities to it than with Capricorn. What is similar between the two symbolism of the birds. Birds are mentioned in both. And birds are symbolic of our thoughts of the mental activities. Everything that flies up there and comes and goes. And it's very dynamic and maybe flickery as well. So it's these mental concepts that we have and from Capricorn and carrying it towards Aquarius, we are asked to master these mental activities, the mindset of psychological patterns that might be underlying so that we can empty ourselves out and give to the community fully and freely because we are the vessel of let's say, the divine spark flowing through us and not just giving because of our egotistic kind of desires.

So the birds are common to both, which is interesting. Probably because mental patterns are not as easily relinquished, and so we need to carry them through both signs.

[00:23:36] Fiona Marques: I really like this carrying of the birds through these three signs. So if we go back to the texts, I'm just going make sure that I don't misquote your wonderful essay. From Jaimini, we have Things moving in the air", and then he actually, says, "planets slash birds". So, that lets us know things moving in the air, birds. 

And then we have moving to a different text in Yavana Jataka, we have Aquarius as indicates "Tanks, fields of poor grain and haunts of birds". It's as if the birds are all dispersed in Capricorn willy-nilly flying around like the thoughts that you were mentioning. And they can become part of the battle that we are having in Capricorn can be our own self-talk and all of those thoughts that can trip us up. Whereas by the time we get to Aquarius, the discipline of Saturn through Capricorn has helped us take the birds that were all loose and flying around and now in these haunts, which means that they become a resource then. If the community can access a haunt of birds, then food and the other things that are available from birds to share. 

But then very beautifully in Pisces, it talks about in Yavana Jataka, the rivers, the ocean, and the clouds. So now when we think of the sky, by the time we get to Pisces, there's no animals mentioned in this sky. So a sense that in order to really experience the opportunity of Pisces, what it's offering us is free space that's not with our thoughts. Yeah. That it's, I something I find very beautiful about these, the imagery of these three signs. And of course, I love that you pick that up in your essay.

What are some of the things that stood out to you as being important?

[00:25:30] Pisces Imagery

[00:25:30] Michaela: I think what is really important in PIs, and it's really direct, it's the pair of fish swimming alongside each other in opposite direction. So it's really the dualities, coexisting harmoniously alongside each other. As if all the opposites had the right to exist at the same time. In Pisces now we've arrived at the place where the dualities can exist, and at the same time, there is no place for dualities because everything is One.

Andthis is also mentioned in Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra when he says that Pisces is both a front rising and a back rising side. So all the signs are either one or the other, and Pisces is the only one that can do both front and back. So everything is there at the same time. So that's really beautiful from already just the image of Pisces and having the symbol of these two fish.

It tells a lot about what the sign is about. 

[00:26:34] Fiona Marques: It is really wonderful to hear that Michaela, at a time like this, when it seems that things have become quite polarized politically. And then right now as we record this, there's a lot of difficulties around struggles with conflict. and I think we are experiencing that fallacy of either I'm right or the other per this person's right. There's only one. And I love how you've expressed this in Pisces, that when we can get to the consciousness of Pisces, that we've got two fish swimming in opposite directions and it's completely okay. It makes all the sense in the world that we've all got our own perspectives. They're multiple and they're One at the same time. So I don't know that we are quite there yet, but maybe we're on our journey towards that. And that's the Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces journey is that, Pisces Springs out of two Saturn Signs. It comes after the two hardest signs. Two most disciplined and least least forgiving or least generous in their own way. And from that springs this Jupiter sign. 

[00:27:48] Michaela: It's as if we have to go through these final battle or test, pass this final test of Saturn to access the benefic and benevolent Jupiter in Pisces. In the negative polarity of Jupiter in Pisces to give us all these positive things, all these ceremonies and jewels and pearls and offerings and ornaments and law and righteousness and views of the surroundings.

Everything is positive in Pisces as it's said to be the best sign once you've got there, right? But you have to go through this Saturnian test first, and then Jupiter is willing to give you everything you want in 

[00:28:37] Connecting imagery

[00:28:37] Fiona Marques: And there's a couple of flow throughs here. Like we talked about the birds and the sky flowing through the three. There's also a flow through here, isn't there with the moving? Let me again not misquote your essay. From Brihat Parashara, we've got Capricorn "moving in watery ground". And from Yavana Jataka we had "marshes". So when we say moving in watery ground, you can think of quicksand and swamps and, it's quite difficult to move in watery ground 'cause it's muddy and it's sludgy and you lose your footing all the time. And it's dirty and you can't drink that water, if you fall into it, it's it's got difficulty "moving in watery ground" for Capricorn. 

For Aquarius we've got "standing in the middle of the water". And our color scheme has gone from "spotted in many colors". If we think about that walking in watery ground, it's gonna be filled with the browns and the greens and all of the things that are mixed together. But by the time we get to Aquarius, we're in "deep brown" and we are "standing in the middle of the water".

And then we get to Pisces and it's "colorless". It doesn't have that form of having a color, but now we are "moving in the water". So I feel like that's a real flow through these three signs, isn't it?

[00:29:52] Michaela: Yeah, it is as well. And all are watery. Moving towards the watery ocean, right? And ocean is, in general a representation of our consciousness. Like this story of the churning of the ocean by the Suras and the Asuras, the ocean is just the consciousness. Consciousness in the sense of individual consciousness, like what is going on in our individual minds. And then by the churning of the ocean, you can get out all the positive and negative things. So all the preconceived ideas and notions, et cetera. 

And so we are moving from marshes to standing in water to being in an ocean that is so deep that you don't really know what's at the bottom of the ocean. Oceans are, even like in these worlds, such unexplored areas of our planet That we know more about the space than about the 

[00:30:47] Fiona Marques: I know.

You're absolutely right. And then in these statements we've got the four feet of Capricorn, the two feet of Aquarius, and the no Feet of Pisces. So it also tells us, doesn't it, something about standing our ground, and like in Capricorn, we need four feet. Like we just have to be completely grounded and have the traction onto the karma and onto the earth to do whatever the great task is. And in Aquarius we get to stand on two feet and contribute to humanity all of the things that might've helped us on our journey, a pond here and there a granary here and there, and a coop of birds might've helped us get through our journey. So we give all of that back standing on our two feet. And then in Pisces we are released from having to hold any ground at all.

[00:31:40] Michaela: As is said in Jaimini, elevation, perpetual Dharma and Kaivalyam. When one looks at it from the spiritual perspective, it's the final liberation, right? It's moksha. It's not being of this world anymore. And maybe even if you live in this world, you're not off it anymore, so you don't need the feet 

[00:32:00] Fiona Marques: yes. 

[00:32:01] Challenges described in the imagery

[00:32:01] Fiona Marques: And all of these statements of Pisces do sound quite inviting when we read them right at the beginning of the podcast. But for those of us who have planets in Pisces, one knows that they can, Pisces can be extremely expansive and footless. It's hard for that planet to perhaps manifest and produce as it would, somewhere else in the ecliptic. Sounds like a great blessing and it certainly it's an aspirational story of our consciousness these zodiac signs. But it doesn't mean that we might not experience some of the footlessness and expansiveness of Pisces to have its own challenges in the material world where most of us are operating and have responsibilities.

[00:32:43] Michaela: For sure. And water is also our emotional nature, right? So every time we're in deep waters, we are also deep in our emotions and that has its own 

[00:32:54] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Yeah.

And let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges because, apart from Pisces, the Sutras do give us an indication, and I just wonder about your thoughts if you have any. For example, Jaimini says about Capricorn, "Kapha disorders, itches, defects guilt, tumors, and joint problems".

[00:33:17] Michaela: So maybe half the words that he devoted is very as you said, poetic and very doesn't say much, but managed to say quite a few irritations there for Capricorn. Was there anything that particularly spoke to you about those irritations? Yeah. I think Capricorn does not often have a good reputation, right? And maybe that's why there are all these negative attributes. I think it's mostly because it's associated its ruler or Saturn that just whatever it takes, if it's the itches or the joints, or the tumors or the swellings, whatever it takes it will show you if you're going in the right direction or not.

Another thought I had on this, in Sanskrit, you say "Grantha", which can be translated with all these words without difficulty, doubt, swelling or tumors. But in, in the basic text, it's just one word. It's grantha or granthi. The same root. And in, in Yogic philosophy, we have the three granthis in the chakra system. And the one of them, the first one is in the root chakra. It's the Brahma granthi. So it's this knot when the chakra system is tied up, when the energy cannot flow easily there, there is this knot. And Saturn, rules. The root chakra Capricorn is associated with it. I think for me it's really just the methods of teaching on the right path, That's how I see it. 

[00:34:48] Fiona Marques: It speaks about, the rich and varied experience of Capricorn that, we will take actions that are motivated by survival. That's Capricorn, that's Saturn's job is to help us survive. Consciousness can't evolve unless the food bodies stay alive long enough to keep replicating. And it makes me think about survivor's guilt that he mentioned specifically here, guilt in Jaimini's Sutras, that Capricorn there's a kind of if you can survive Capricorn, it's because you are willing to do what it takes. And there can be a guilt about that, that, and one can even be confronted sometimes about how pragmatic one can be, or the decisions that one made. There's something that Jaimini is hinting at to me, that Capricorn can feel like the least auspicious place in the ecliptic. That we might look back when we're in Pisces and think, how could I done who was I? How could I have done that? But that is exactly part of what it is to be human. Is that, as you mentioned in your introduction when your yoga teacher was sharing about how the planets are a part of the energy of what it is to be human, is each of us are expressing these planetary energies and Saturn is going to allow us to survive. 

And not to be put off that we are also human, it's isn't it? It's a very spiritual ask to completely accept your own humanity. And your own limitations. And your joint problems and your defects, and your itches and Kapha disorders. Jaimini is really giving us permission to be the broken humans that we are. And the spiritual calling that it is to love that, love the flaws that you have and not expect yourself to be a saint that has no physical problems, no mental problems, no psychological problems. Jaimini is giving us permission to fully be human in Capricorn.

[00:36:56] Michaela: Yes. This is very wonderful. Yeah, I think that makes total sense. It's being fully relevant in this world and in this body, with all that it has to take. Like this human existence will bring problems and difficulties and disease and everything that's mentioned in Capricorn. And you asked to be disciplined to try to do your best and at the same time just relinquish it all and feel like supported, but something higher. It's about this both and and.

In that same vein of some of the difficulties that these Sutras make us aware of, we have in Yavana Jataka the idea that, so Aquarius, if anybody listened to my previous podcast, everybody knows I love Aquarius. We all love to think about the beautiful parts of Aquarius, the utopian kind of parts of Aquarius.

[00:37:48] Fiona Marques: But even in Yavana Jataka we have here, it indicates tanks, fields of poor grains, haunts of birds, areas suitable for women, liquor, cellars, and gambling. So this is in the one sentence, it's got some good advantages of when we pool our resources. When we look at it in a utopian way, it's lovely, isn't it? To have tanks of water so that the whole village has got access to water. It to have a grain store for the whole village that maybe like Joseph and the technicoloured dreamcoat, we can get through our seven years of famine if we've put in the hard work in the prosperous years of storing those things. So this is an Aquarian idea. 

But then with liquor makes us realize you can't really make liquor unless you have an excess of grain or of some kind of produce. You ferment it. And fermenting in itself is a process of rotting something and then eating something or consuming something that's rotten. So I feel like Yavana Jataka is hinting at it that it is great to pool resources, but there can be a downside. Did you also explore that?

[00:39:00] Michaela: Yeah, this is interesting in interpretation of liquor that you can only make when you have sufficient grains, right? You have already baked all your bread and now you have grains left. So what did you do with them?

You make liquor all the same with gambling. You've done all your work and you still have some free time left, so why not go and play a little bit, and you have so money to also provide for the game and that.

This is in the positive sense, I feel like, okay, you have enough materially, so now you can produce your liquor and do your gambling. It becomes problematic when the liquor and the gambling is set before the baking bread. And for me, I've seen it this as all the signs have their positive and negative polarities and you can be anywhere in between and at different spots at the same time, have some of the positive, some of the negatives going on in your life. 

I saw this liquor and the gambling elements as this is what happens when you're not at peace with yourself. Then you turn to liquor and then you turn to gambling. And you forget that you need to make the ponds and the tanks and create the areas they're suitable for women. And that's the consequence of not having really, maybe when we talk about the evolution, when not having mastered everything that was asked of you from one to 10.

Now you're here in Aquarius and you still are not set on what your path at this point in life is, and what you can contribute to the community. And you have all these birds, mental programs going on and you are in the water, in the emotions. And then you turn to liquor and gambling. For me, I saw it this way, but it's nice to see the positive side of it. Like you've done your job, now go have 

some fun! 

[00:40:57] Fiona Marques: You've got a surplus. Yeah. So you can enjoy it. Yeah. And I think it is, it's really interesting because in some ways this is quite the divergence maybe in Aquarius that then leads to very different experiences of Pisces. Because we talked about how positive the wording of Pisces is, and I think many people that are attracted to Vedic Astrology are attracted to the idea of e elevation, perpetual dharma, all of those kind of things. It's just sounds wonderful. 

But Pisces or that, that number 12 can also have this element of escaping of that that actually the trauma and the suffering of the hero's journey through these zodiac signs has been too much somewhere along the way. And the self has just had to aim for escaping not necessarily in the ideal Pisces spiritual kind of way, but just trying to escape pain. And maybe the birth of that is somewhere in Aquarius, or maybe it's even earlier. 

Because if we think about the problems that are associated with the 12th and escaping, they can have to do with drinking or with consuming substances that help alter sense of suffering. But they prevent us from really integrating what's occurred to us. We just had that feeling to, to run away from it and get as far away from that as possible. 

So in some ways, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are offering that chance to integrate the trauma and the pain which is maybe what brings us back to Capricorn. And that really the marshy muddy water and the guilt and all of those things is saying, take your time in Capricorn like. To integrate the complexity of the trauma and suffering that we all experience.

[00:42:46] Michaela: Yes. Yes, exactly. And what I really, one of the symbolisms I really like also with Aquarius is the "things related to shores", we talk about in Aquarius. And that life is not easy, right? So we have this, all these one to nine, and then we have Capricorn, and now we're in Aquarius and we have all this potential to do something with it.

But also this heavy weight on the shoulder being carried. And it's not easy. And so heavy weight on the shoulders. And it's, now I see this as the kind of the final psychological battle that we that we wait here in 11. And that is described by Jaimini "as all things related to shores".

So shores is a borderline, it's lined between dry land and the ocean or waters. And this is the place where we decide, so how is this Pisces going to turn out? Is this going to be Moksha and liberation, or is this gonna be escapism? And am I going to board a ship? I'm at the shore. Now I have the possibility to go, I see the vast ocean in front of me. Do I want to jump in and join it?

And then if I join this ship that leads me to this spicy world, which direction will it go? Will it go to this spiritual liberation side or will it just bring me to a different country so that I forget everything that I've done so far in my life because I don't want to deal with it anymore?

So this shore in Aquarius is giving us the opportunity to take a last decision on where I want to go. Which ship do I want to board? 

[00:44:28] Fiona Marques:

[00:44:28] Farewell and Conclusion

[00:44:28] Fiona Marques: It's very beautiful, Michaela, and probably a beautiful place to bring our discussion to an end. It's one of those things that we could talk about all day. But I do feel that we've had a chance to explore these three signs from various different insights of these imagery and the Sutras. So I really appreciate, Michaela, you being here and being so generous in sharing your research and your essay.

[00:44:55] Michaela: Thank you very much, Fiona was a pleasure.

[00:44:57] Fiona Marques: And I will put a link so people can read the full essay. It'll be up on my website at AVA-Apprenticeship-Newsletters. So there are many examples of the kind of work that students produce for the Apprenticeship, and it might inspire you as you have your own interest in Vedic Astrology if you would like to pursue this kind of study and research approach, ground yourself like so many students before us, so many generations going back for hundreds and thousands of years. I invite you to think about joining the Apprenticeship and maybe have a look at some of the work that the students are doing. 

And Michaela, is there a way that people can get in touch with you if they would like to understand more about your research and also your work with yoga?

[00:45:50] Michaela: Yeah, so if people want to get in touch with me, you can go on my website, which is in French, but you can find my email there and my contact details. Also my link to my Instagram and don't hesitate to get in touch. It's "Yogatha", so Y-O-G-A-T-H-A.FR So France. because I'm based in France. But currently there is only content in French. But stay tuned. I think something might happen in the years to come.

[00:46:22] Fiona Marques: Definitely. And that's what we should also say is, listen to what Michaela's had to share. She's been with the program since September, so we are talking about six months, something like this. It's a really, is a really rich way to ground your understanding of Vedic Astrology because layer by layer, Ryan Kurczak is going to clarify the important foundational concepts of, in this case, it was about Rasis and Signs. But then he'll do another foundation for you on Bhavas and Houses and then on Planets. And then he's going teach you all about Shadbala, all about how to understand the Lajjitaadi Avasthas. And then how to use yogas in Vedic Astrology. Before the final three, like we've talked about the final three, before talking about the foundations of Rahu and Ketu, of the Vargas, and then of how to use Timing and Transits.

So it's one of those courses that is going to make your understanding of Vedic Astrology, very solid and connected to these ancient texts. So the way we begin with ancient texts, that approach follows all the way through the Apprenticeship. So look at the kind of stuff you're gonna cover in such a short amount of time.

Michaela, it's been just beautiful to spend time with you today and talk about these three really rich signs. I am so looking forward to reading your other work about the Apprenticeship and hope that we get the chance to do a podcast again in the future. 

[00:47:55] Michaela: It would be a pleasure, Fiona. Thank you very much and thank you everyone for listening. 

[00:47:59] Fiona Marques: Bye everyone. Bye guys. next Thanks. Bye.

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